I appreciate that everyone took the time to post their thoughts. Some of the things that were said got me really thinking.
First, everyone is entitled to an opinion. I have become increasingly vindicated as this issue has played out, and I shocked myself, wishing it weren’t so. I’ve felt upset, angry, sad, and even have felt the beginnings of violent feelings coming on. Mainly, I know it is not a personal attack on my family, but it is discrimination against it nonetheless.
Aside from Prop 8, I have an honest question. Being unfamiliar with the feelings of regarding the scripture as holy, I am curious to hear how people feel on this topic: how can some things in the bible be taken so word for word, when other things are disregarded? This reminded me of a well-known scene from the West Wing.
Dr. Jenna Jacobs: I don’t say homosexuality is an abomination, Mr. President. The Bible does.
President Bartlet: Yes it does. Leviticus.
Dr. Jenna Jacobs: 18:22.
President Bartlet: Chapter and verse. I wanted to ask you a couple of questions while I have you here. I’m interested in selling my youngest daughter into slavery as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. She’s a Georgetown sophomore, speaks fluent Italian, always cleared the table when it was her turn. What would a good price for her be? While thinking about that, can I ask another? My Chief of Staff Leo McGarry insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly says he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself or is it okay to call the police? Here’s one that’s really important because we’ve got a lot of sports fans in this town: touching the skin of a dead pig makes one unclean. Leviticus 11:7. If they promise to wear gloves, can the Washington Redskins still play football? Can Notre Dame? Can West Point? Does the whole town really have to be together to stone my brother John for planting different crops side by side? Can I burn my mother in a small family gathering for wearing garments made from two different threads?
How does one decipher what to regard as holy in the Bible and what to ignore? Specifically, I want to hear from those with strong faith. This is not coming from angst or anything, but I am truly curious.
Amelia,
Your question is a good one, although not easily answered. There are many different opinions and answers, some of which have resulted in splits in the church through the ages. Today, most main stream Christian churches do agree on the basics of this issue.
To explain this…it requires a thorough understanding of Old Testament Laws and Customs, as well as Christ’s role in the New Testament.
The Bible is divided into the Old Testament (before Christ) and the New Testament (after Christ). Christians believe they are both the Holy Word of God, yet we also recognize that some of the Old Testament was replaced when Christ came to earth. The Old Testament has morals that are still valued today, but it also had laws about diet, customs, civil disobedience…..which are outdated. Much of the “old law” was to provide guidance to those living under the rule of man. Christ had not yet come (when He does, so much changes.) But those old ways were to guide people.
It is easy to feel conflicted when God speaks about slaves (for example), and it wasnt that he was condoning slavery, but giving instruction to those living in cultures that had slaves. He also was foreshadowing the coming of Christ, and the way that we would live under Christ’s rule…which is very different than how they lived under man’s rule.
One of the reasons Christ is so important to the Christian, is He changed many of the laws. In the Old Testament, we had an “eye for an eye”, yet with Christ, we are to “turn the other cheek”….that doesnt mean we dont have consequences for sin, but it means that Christ is forgiving, if we ask.
Im probably not answering your question…but if you are interested, I would recommend going to http://www.blb.org (blue letter bible). It is an amazing resource, as it not only has the Bible online, but when you look up scriptures, you can also look up info about the culture, what was going on during that time, and read commentaries from some of the most revered Bible Scholars.
If would suggest, to start, take a scripture that seems confusing or contradictory to you, and look it up. Then read commentary on that scripture from a few of the scholars. The commentaries are word for word of sermons, where those respected pastors preached on that scripture. That may help you understand how the old laws are viewed by Christians today.
It isnt that those laws werent important, they just dont all apply today.
However, the moral laws, do still apply, and are repeated throughout the New Testament of the Bible (post Christ.)
I hope that helps some.
kim
What a great resource Kim refers to. I also agree with her post. When Christianity becomes a way of life and when it is so ingrained into what you understand, it is easy to forget the perspective of those who have not been immersed in it from childhood. In this I may have failed you, but I always knew you would figure it out for yourself some day in a way that your spirituality would be developed, and perhaps not necessarily the exact way that mine has been. I respect that.
Kim brings up the important points that we don’t often read scripture and take it literally because, as her resource provides, there are many things that create understanding of that particular scripture. Some scripture can be taken very literally such as the 10 commandments. Those are easy to understand in literal terms. The Old Testament is full of laws that sound strange to us now days and as we understand who they were written for and why, it helps us also understand why they do not apply anymore. It isn’t that we are just taking out the ones that we don’t want anymore. The best example of this off hand would be that in the Old Testament they did not eat pork. While some cultures/religions still adhere to that, most of us don’t because we know that in those days it was dangerous for a person to consume pork. Kosher law was important then and now it is important to those who want to use it as a discipline to show respect and obedience to God.
Now days we know that it is perfectly safe to eat pork if the correct precautions are taken. If scripture did not dictate that for those people they would have continued to eat it, risking their health. It also provided a platform for their faith to be tested by God. Many things we do not find reason for are simply commanded to us so that our faith can be tested. That is a simple one with a very in depth explanation that I have only touched the surface of.
Faith is a tricky thing. Faith is believing in that which is not seen and that which is not tangible. It does not mean a person is following blindly when they have faith. It means that their heart tells them that it is the correct thing to do. Faith utilizes the connection we have to something bigger than we can fully understand. We have to have faith to find peace with many things in life’s difficulties. Not folklore but a true belief system that works for each of us individually. Faith also provides us with the foundation of doing what is right because we have been asked to by a higher power. This is found in all religions, even the ones I don’t agree with personally. Faith challenges us to deviate from usual behavior to better ourselves through discipline. Generally speaking, all religions begin with the desire to better ourselves before the higher powers of the universe.
As faith is tested and the evolution of spirituality happens there is an enlightenment (literal or not) that happens. Attitudes change and hearts are softened. Keeping and retaining that is where the problems lie for many.
There are too many things that happen that defy science or the most educated minds explanations. Finding a place to process those events personally is where peace is found. When you were at Lincoln’s funeral you felt this. Where is he? Will you see him again? Why is that going to happen? Why do you still feel his love for you? These are all the same kinds of questions other people have and find answers to for themselves. All around the globe.
Faith. It is centuries old and it is documented in many pieces of scripture and ancient writings from the beginning of time. That part of us that is not tangible to science. The part of us that becomes our belief system individually. And sometimes those are the points that don’t make sense to anyone but ourselves.
How can we conclude that the scriptures against homosexuality are not also a product of the social scene before the days of Jesus?
As you know, I have felt so much of the same things you are feeling. This whole prop 8 thing has stirred up some very strong feelings in me that I thought I had resolved. And it is particularly difficult going from having felt accepted and validated to feeling merely tolerated.
I appreciate your struggle. Butt is one that you need to experience. Everyone has to come to their own conclusions when it comes to God, churches, spirituality, and religion. I recognize that this is a very important part of that process for you.
None of the comments made here on your blog have been mean or spiteful, or even intolerant. They have been very tolerant. Accepting? Not necessarily. But that leads me to a HUGE point that your mother and others have mentioned.
There are people in this world with whom we will never see eye to eye. We will never accept their values. Plain and simple. We will perhaps never understand how people can possibly view things the way they do. But allowing ourselves to remain bitter over issues and angry at people will only eat us up from the inside out. So, we must find a peaceful place where we can find a balance of tolerance. This is one of life’s most difficult and important journies.
I am sorry that over your growing up years I have most likely allowed you to see only my feelings of hurt and rejection regarding religion. I should have tried to be a better example of tolerance myself.
All of this being said….continue standing up for that which you feel is right!!! Just try not to be so angry about it. And I’ll try, too.
By the way, I LOVED that scene from the West Wing. Classic.
And in my posts you can replace the word “tolerance” with the word “acceptance” every single time. To me it is the same thing.
I’m sure the first answer was much better than what I can tell you, but how I’ve always understood it was that the Old Testament (the laws) were rules for people who really needed some rules to follow. They were based on custom and tradition and trying to do what was right at the time.
The rules gave punishments for what people were doing wrong. It called for sacrifice so that people would be right with God again. Because sin is anything that separates us from God and the people then needed a way to connect again with God after they did something wrong.
BUT, when Jesus came, he WAS the sacrifice. There was nothing more that God could ask for us to give to Him to make things right because He was supplying the perfect sacrifice, His only son. A man who was sinless yet gave Himself up to die so that we could have a direct connection with God.
Romans 6:14 says “For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.” When Jesus came, we no longer had to live by those laws (though like the first person said – some of them are good things to do anyway) because when a person accepts the sacrifice of Jesus and asks Him into their lives they are given the power of the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. They are no longer bound by those laws but by the grace of God.
People can make the Bible say anything they want if you pull parts of it out of context or the culture of the time it is written. God loves people. All people. A good test for me is that if something doesn’t promote love and peace then it’s probably not of God, even if it’s being quoted from a Bible. If someone thinks they can justify hating someone else because of their sexual orientation then they are missing the whole point. God loves every single person He has created. He knew them before they were born and He has their names on the palm of His hand. He doesn’t stop loving them because of their race or sexual orientation or even their religion.
I don’t know if that makes any sense at all, but I hope it does. If I can clarify at all or if you have other questions please ask. I don’t claim to know much, but I’m happy to find out for you.
Amelia,
It is hard to give a general explanation about which laws we still follow, and which we can just deem as “for the culture of that time.” The answer would be different for each…your mom gives a great example re: pork, we can look back now and see that it pertained to health issues, that have sense been reconciled through science, etc. There are many like that, which were done for health and hygienic reasons, but arent necessary today.
In regards to homosexuality, those of us that believe it is still a sin today, believe so because of New Testament references, as well as the context of the Old Testament references. We believe it is a moral law that has not changed.
I know it seems like people have just picked what they wanted, but with study, most find that is not the case.
I know it also seems, like if some laws were based on culture, why cant we just change things to fit the culture of today?
Again, with study, most come to see that the context of moral laws has not changed, in fact, there are many cultures in the Bible, that were very similar to our culture today, with many of the same issues.
I appreciate that this is painful for you, and your dad. I appreciate that your dad has never been mean to me or called me names, or made spiteful references to myself…. even when I know that he was feeling very attacked by those of us that supported Prop 8.
And, while it may not seem like it…. I do accept you and your dad (as much as you can an internet friend
). Obviously, I dont accept your same belief system as it pertains to this issue, but that doesnt preclude me from accepting YOU. (again, I know it may seem hard to tease out the difference, when your family, your very foundation, is a large part of who you are, and that feels attacked.)
I shared with your dad, that about a decade ago, I had a friend. I thought we were great friends. We were in grad school together, and he was my favorite peer. I respected him more than any other student, and enjoyed his company the most.
When he fell upon hard times, I suggested he move in with me and my husband (I was expecting my first son.) I had no plans to charge him or anything, he was my friend and I wanted to help, and knew my husband and I would get along well with him. I always knew he was gay, he was open about it, and that never altered my feelings of friendship towards him. One day, I cant remember how, it came up that I thought homosexuality was a sin. It wasnt brought up to judge him, and it wasnt directed at him, it was through an indirect conversation. And that was the end of our friendship. He said mean things to me, and told me he couldnt be my friend. It still hurts. I reconnected with him about a year ago, and it still hurts.
I believe we all fall short of what God intended for us. I would never hold someones shortcomings (or what I see as a sin), against someone, re: caring about them. I think God loves us all the same, and He truly loves us all.
I do believe God hates, as the Bible says he Hates sin. God is love, but He doesnt walk around loving everything, in this world, it’s not hard to find many things He hates (behaviors, not people.) I dont think that means He is a mean person, as the Bible says that He is so pure, He truly is offended by sin. But He adores the sinner, He loves the sinner….each of us. That is why He sent Christ, as a sacrifice, and a way to connect with all of us (because none of us is worthy to be in His presence, without the sacrifice of Christ.)
I hope that helps you understand more of where some Prop 8 supporters are coming from.
Actually, there was a man that came to our church, and I wish he would go to every church. He spoke about homosexuality, and how the church has pushed away gays. He does not condone homosexuality, and believes it is a sin, but as he pointed out, who in church doesnt sin? He doesnt believe one should just “continue on”…but like all of us with a sinful nature, we struggle every day to do things the way God wants, and deny what seems right to us. I wish you could hear this man, it may give you much more insight than I could give.
If you take away anything from this discussion, I hope it is to know that God loves you.
Kim
Hey Amelia,
The examples you bring up in the Old Testament are good ones, and the other comments have made good points also. I appreciate your willingness to dialogue on this tough topic.
You can look at God and Israel as analogous (sp?) to a parent and child. A child is too limited in her knowledge of the world to be reasoned with. A parent must make “laws” that a child must obey, such as don’t take candy from strangers. This rule doesn’t make sense to a child, but how can a parent explain the danger to such a inexperienced mind? So back to questioning God. He sees all at once — he has the big picture. We have a tiny peephole. I remember angrily questioning my mother when I didn’t like her rules. Now looking back with a bigger part of the picture, I must concede that she had my best interest in mind.
With centuries of historic, scientific and cultural advancement behind us, we realize that primitive human societies did not understand the world or value life the way we do. People in the Bible did things that were common to their society, but which God does not condone — for example, you mentioned slavery. A Hebrew was never to be a slave completely owned by another Hebrew, demonstrating that God is not in favor of slavery; and polygamy — God allowed it but never condoned it. The Bible consistently shows the damage caused by these practices.
And the Old Testament laws were also directed toward primitive understanding. We now scientifically understand why we must wash, why certain fabrics are superior, why a piece of land needs to “rest” from a crop, etc. However, God’s laws were also spiritual in nature — laws to make his people distinct as they were bearing His name, or laws set up to communicate spiritual truths, like sacrificing lambs, or Abraham being asked to sacrifice his son, foreshadowing the coming of the Messiah and His death as a payment for sin. According to the Bible, marriage is special to God because it demonstrates that God has placed a high value on both men and women and wants us to value their differences but also their equality (“the two shall become one flesh”). Marriage also represents His own special love for His people. It has a spiritual symbolism, like most (all?) of his laws.
Much of what He instituted is still not easy to understand, especially for those who do not choose to pursue spiritual things. We are mere humans with limited minds who have had only a few decades on the earth. We are looking through a glass darkly. But it’s cool that you are still willing to ask questions. He says that those who seek shall find, if they seek with all their heart.
One last thing:
7-11. if a man sell his daughter-Hebrew girls might be redeemed for a reasonable sum. But in the event of her parents or friends being unable to pay the redemption money, her owner was not at liberty to sell her elsewhere. Should she have been betrothed to him or his son, and either change their minds, a maintenance must be provided for her suitable to her condition as his intended wife, or her freedom instantly granted.
Matthew Henry’s Concise Commentary
I would like to say one more thing please. There are many things I do not understand. Some of the things I do not understand are things other people have studied and have the capability to understand. Things like Calculus and Scientific Theory or Chemistry. I accept that and won’t EVER feel like putting in the effort to understand those things.
Other things I do not understand are things like the issue of homosexuality. It is beyond my comprehension why people would be certain way and then commanded not to be by scripture. I am positive there is an explanation but it may not be anything I learn in my lifetime. All I do is accept the fact that I love people who are gay and they are part of my family. I also accept that they have issues that I do not personally have to struggle with. I only know that I am glad that self acceptance has happened with your dad and that he has found a happy fulfilling life with Giancarlo.
I too have things I have struggled with in my own personal life. Things your dad has accepted about me. Things that might not make sense to other people. Some of those things might be related to things I have chosen to do or experience. Your dad will never understand why I love racing cars so much. It is beyond his comprehension why that would be so big of a part of my own life. Other things that might not be understood is that I am ever evolving in my thinking and my return to religion itself after being through so much “yuck” with it in the past.
My point is that everyone has their own life experience. They are in their own reality. Our job is to use our judgement of others only to make sure we ourselves are in a place of growth without being turned a direction we don’t want to go by those we associate with. We should never use the judging of others to discriminate or to find fault with the ones we love.
Just because I do not understand all the issues does not mean that I cannot have a belief system that is bible based while loving and completely accepting those who do not. I have found that I do not have to understand everything to make my own life work. I also know that there is a part of me and my belief system that is not accepted by most of our family and that is where my voice is silenced.
It is being together in a family and living in a world where everyone has free agency.